Author line oddity in citations

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Author line oddity in citations

Eggert, Lars
Hi,

I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."

[RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
           Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
           <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.

Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.

Lars

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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Bob Hinden-3
Lars,

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:53 AM, Eggert, Lars <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>
> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>           Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>           <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>
> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
I don’t know the reasons, but it’s been done that way for a long time.

Bob

>
> Lars
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest


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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Carsten Bormann
On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:05, Bob Hinden <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> a long time

“Long” as in “Since RFC 753, Jon Postel, March 1979”.

Grüße, Carsten

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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Ole Jacobsen

The format is one of many used for citations.

Wild guess: In the early days Jon Postel worked for a time at
SRI with Jake Feinler who was a librarian by training. It may
be that she suggested this format and it stuck.

Useful tool developed by Henry:

https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/

Use 1187 for your example, then change the string "{authors.rfclist}"
to "{authors.andlist}" and you'll get the more common format.


Ole

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Carsten Bormann wrote:

> On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:05, Bob Hinden <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > a long time
>
> “Long” as in “Since RFC 753, Jon Postel, March 1979”.
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
In reply to this post by Eggert, Lars
On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>
> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>            <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>
> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
>

Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.

-Heather
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Ole Jacobsen

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:

> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.
>
> -Heather

That's Chicago Manual of Style (CMOS) not some transistor technology
in case you are wondering Lars :-)

Ole
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Elwyn Davies-3
In reply to this post by Ole Jacobsen

This is an oddity that has been brought up many times previously.  Conclusion has always been that nobody (now) knows why we got this curious citation format.  One theory was that it was just a mistake in some early RFC which was aiming at Chicago Manual of Style citations that use this format:

If there is more than one author, list the first person last name first, add a comma, and then list the second person normally. Any name that appears after the first name is always written first name first.

Gilbert, Sandra M., and Susan Gubar.

and didn't obey the "Any name ..." clause correctly.

Some heretics have claimed that St Jon made a mistake and the rest of us just followed the one true path.....  and references were maybe not so verbose back then.

AFAIK the format is unique to RFCs/Drafts.

Cheers,

Elwyn


On 22/06/2017 16:22, Ole Jacobsen wrote:
The format is one of many used for citations.

Wild guess: In the early days Jon Postel worked for a time at
SRI with Jake Feinler who was a librarian by training. It may
be that she suggested this format and it stuck.

Useful tool developed by Henry: 

https://tools.ietf.org/tools/citation/

Use 1187 for your example, then change the string "{authors.rfclist}"
to "{authors.andlist}" and you'll get the more common format.


Ole

On Thu, 22 Jun 2017, Carsten Bormann wrote:

On Jun 22, 2017, at 10:05, Bob Hinden [hidden email] wrote:
a long time
“Long” as in “Since RFC 753, Jon Postel, March 1979”.

Grüße, Carsten


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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Loa Andersson-2
In reply to this post by Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
Heather,

inline please.

On 2017-06-23 01:20, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:

> On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>>
>> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>>            <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>>
>> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
>>
>
> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.

I've looked at CMOS, and can't find the style you are referring too, can
you send me a link?

/Loa
>
> -Heather
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>

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Senior MPLS Expert                          [hidden email]
Huawei Technologies (consultant)     phone: +46 739 81 21 64
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Brian E Carpenter-2
Loa,

I do wonder myself why we use this style instead of the simpler style
used by IEEE and ACM, but this goes back a long way (RFC793 for example)
so it would be a bit strange to change it now.

As for CMOS, I think it must depend on the edition. Some sources
suggest "Deans, Graeme K., Fritz Kroeger and Stefan Zeisel"
rather than "Deans, Graeme K., Kroeger, Fritz and Stefan Zeisel".

Also see http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html

Regards
   Brian

On 25/06/2017 20:56, Loa Andersson wrote:

> Heather,
>
> inline please.
>
> On 2017-06-23 01:20, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>> On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>>>
>>> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>>>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>>>            <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>>>
>>> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.
>
> I've looked at CMOS, and can't find the style you are referring too, can
> you send me a link?
>
> /Loa
>>
>> -Heather
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>
>
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
On 6/25/17 1:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Loa,
>
> I do wonder myself why we use this style instead of the simpler style
> used by IEEE and ACM, but this goes back a long way (RFC793 for example)
> so it would be a bit strange to change it now.

Also, changing it has implications for a number of tools. I'm not sure
the effort is worth it in this case (but am happy to hear other opinions).

>
> As for CMOS, I think it must depend on the edition. Some sources
> suggest "Deans, Graeme K., Fritz Kroeger and Stefan Zeisel"
> rather than "Deans, Graeme K., Kroeger, Fritz and Stefan Zeisel".
>
> Also see http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html

What Brian said.

-Heather

>
> Regards
>    Brian
>
> On 25/06/2017 20:56, Loa Andersson wrote:
>> Heather,
>>
>> inline please.
>>
>> On 2017-06-23 01:20, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>>> On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>>>>
>>>> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>>>>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>>>>            <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>>>>
>>>> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.
>>
>> I've looked at CMOS, and can't find the style you are referring too, can
>> you send me a link?
>>
>> /Loa
>>>
>>> -Heather
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> rfc-interest mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Loa Andersson-2
Heather and Brian,

On 2017-06-27 14:41, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
> On 6/25/17 1:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Loa,
>>
>> I do wonder myself why we use this style instead of the simpler style
>> used by IEEE and ACM, but this goes back a long way (RFC793 for example)
>> so it would be a bit strange to change it now.
>
> Also, changing it has implications for a number of tools. I'm not sure
> the effort is worth it in this case (but am happy to hear other opinions).

While I think the format:
"Deans, Graeme K., F. Kroeger and S. Zeisel"
would be fine for RFCs, I was more interested to know why we use the
format we use.

/Loa

>
>>
>> As for CMOS, I think it must depend on the edition. Some sources
>> suggest "Deans, Graeme K., Fritz Kroeger and Stefan Zeisel"
>> rather than "Deans, Graeme K., Kroeger, Fritz and Stefan Zeisel".
>>
>> Also see http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html
>
> What Brian said.
>
> -Heather
>
>>
>> Regards
>>    Brian
>>
>> On 25/06/2017 20:56, Loa Andersson wrote:
>>> Heather,
>>>
>>> inline please.
>>>
>>> On 2017-06-23 01:20, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>>>> On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity, in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>>>>>
>>>>> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>>>>>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>>>>>            <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style? Just feels odd.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.
>>>
>>> I've looked at CMOS, and can't find the style you are referring too, can
>>> you send me a link?
>>>
>>> /Loa
>>>>
>>>> -Heather
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> rfc-interest mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rfc-interest mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>

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Re: Author line oddity in citations

Elwyn Davies-3
Previous attempts to find a rational explanation for the strange format
have never identified either a formal specification of the format in
IETF archives or any oral history of why we ended up this way.  The best
we can do is the cock-up theory.

<nerd mode on>

Being at a bit of a loose end this afternoon, I had a ferret through the
archives to see when this strange format first appeared.  So far I have
tied it down (probably) to between RFC 905 (May 1984) and RFC 1145
(February 1990).  So far RFC 1145 is the earliest RFC that has an
example (Ref 1) of the current IETF standard that I have found. RFCs
1146, 1158, 1160. 1161 and 1163 all have examples of the IETF format but
interspersed are examples with the conventional Chicago Manual of Style
(CMOS) format.     Several later RFCs around this time (RFCs 1162, 1179,
1185 and 1203) still use CMOS.  However, there is no one consistent
format for References sections  and various formats were used, although
Jon Postel and Joyce Reynolds used CMOS religiously at this time.  
Official blessing of the IETF format didn't come till RFC 2223 (October
1997) and then only implicitly - Section 9 of RFC 2223 says that its own
reference section is 'canonical' and Ref [5] in RFC 2223 has 3 authors.

So there is still no hard evidence of how the RFC 2223 format came into
being and why it happened other than as a mistake possibly by Craig
Partridge in RFC 1146.

Incidentally, RFC 793 does not have any reference with more than 2
authors and conforms to both IETF and standard CMOS  format.
<nerd mode off>

Regards,
Elwyn

On 28/06/2017 09:09, Loa Andersson wrote:

> Heather and Brian,
>
> On 2017-06-27 14:41, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>> On 6/25/17 1:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> Loa,
>>>
>>> I do wonder myself why we use this style instead of the simpler style
>>> used by IEEE and ACM, but this goes back a long way (RFC793 for
>>> example)
>>> so it would be a bit strange to change it now.
>>
>> Also, changing it has implications for a number of tools. I'm not sure
>> the effort is worth it in this case (but am happy to hear other
>> opinions).
>
> While I think the format:
> "Deans, Graeme K., F. Kroeger and S. Zeisel"
> would be fine for RFCs, I was more interested to know why we use the
> format we use.
>
> /Loa
>
>>
>>>
>>> As for CMOS, I think it must depend on the edition. Some sources
>>> suggest "Deans, Graeme K., Fritz Kroeger and Stefan Zeisel"
>>> rather than "Deans, Graeme K., Kroeger, Fritz and Stefan Zeisel".
>>>
>>> Also see
>>> http://www.press.uchicago.edu/books/turabian/turabian_citationguide.html 
>>>
>>
>> What Brian said.
>>
>> -Heather
>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>    Brian
>>>
>>> On 25/06/2017 20:56, Loa Andersson wrote:
>>>> Heather,
>>>>
>>>> inline please.
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-06-23 01:20, Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor) wrote:
>>>>> On 6/22/17 12:53 AM, Eggert, Lars wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just noticed that the author line in citations has an oddity,
>>>>>> in the sense that the name format is "Lastname, I." for all but
>>>>>> the last author, where it is "I. Lastname."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [RFC5681]  Allman, M., Paxson, V., and E. Blanton, "TCP Congestion
>>>>>>            Control", RFC 5681, DOI 10.17487/RFC5681, September 2009,
>>>>>> <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc5681>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this on purpose, e.g., following some common citation style?
>>>>>> Just feels odd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, on purpose. Basically follows CMOS.
>>>>
>>>> I've looked at CMOS, and can't find the style you are referring
>>>> too, can
>>>> you send me a link?
>>>>
>>>> /Loa
>>>>>
>>>>> -Heather
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> rfc-interest mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> rfc-interest mailing list
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>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-interest
>>
>

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